Curse

Balky · Jan 19, 2009, 05:07 PM // 17:07

Everyone knows the reason BHA is useless 50% of the time is the high arc it takes makes it extremely avoidable...so why is [Concussion Shot] ignored ?? It has a similar arc to the majority of other bow attacks and so avoids that dodge factor with BHA , inflicts a daze length the same as BHA ( 21 secs at Marks 16 ) , 5 sec recharge and with your expertise up at 15 ...costs 10 energy - 8 with [Expert Focus] - .....this also means you can use your elite for another skill, throw in DS, SS and whatever else you fancy.

Yes i know BHA has a lower energy req and at the same lvl of expertise will cost about 5 to use , but lets face it it`s a lottery shot and with a 15 sec recharge to boot.

Add a pet into the mix with [Disrupting Lunge][Great Dwarf Weapon]cast on it and maybe even [Strike as One] and i think it could be a casters nightmare

Thoughts ???

legacyofkain85 · Jan 19, 2009, 05:10 PM // 17:10

because bha is daze on demand while concussion shot isnt because u need to interupt with it for the daze to apply

Balky · Jan 19, 2009, 05:22 PM // 17:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by legacyofkain85;

because bha is daze on demand while concussion shot isnt because u need to interupt with it for the daze to apply

Thats assuming you actually hit with it

How often do you find a caster not constantly reapplying enchantments etc ? Particularly mobs ? You can always aggro and then pop [Concussion Shot] to make sure of the interrupt

zelgadissan · Jan 19, 2009, 05:24 PM // 17:24

What kain said. BHA and Technobabble are easily the preferred ways to apply Daze since they cause Daze on hit, period. If you're an amazing interrupter, yeah, Concussion is great, and I personally use it sometimes on my builds (I'm probably average interrupter at best for the record), but if you miss, your energy feels the pain, Expertise or not.

Also, Expert Focus would only drop the cost to 9 at 15 Expertise. Speaking of which, might I also mention how fail it would be to run 16 Marks and 15 Expertise as you suggest?

Final point before I stop editing: anything you really feel the need to Daze in PvE (i.e. monk bosses) is probably casting 3/4 cast spells max, and in half that time because it's a boss, and probably in half that time because it's hard mode. If you can interrupt ~1/4 cast consistently with Concussion, you really shouldn't be doing PvE anymore because you'd be the best GvG player of all time.

Balky · Jan 19, 2009, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan;

What kain said. BHA and Technobabble are easily the preferred ways to apply Daze since they cause Daze on hit, period. If you're an amazing interrupter, yeah, Concussion is great, and I personally use it sometimes on my builds (I'm probably average interrupter at best for the record), but if you miss, your energy feels the pain, Expertise or not.

Also, Expert Focus would only drop the cost to 9 at 15 Expertise. Speaking of which, might I also mention how fail it would be to run 16 Marks and 15 Expertise as you suggest?

Final point before I stop editing: anything you really feel the need to Daze in PvE (i.e. monk bosses) is probably casting 3/4 cast spells max, and in half that time because it's a boss, and probably in half that time because it's hard mode. If you can interrupt ~1/4 cast consistently with Concussion, you really shouldn't be doing PvE anymore because you'd be the best GvG player of all time.

You`ll feel some pain if BHA gets dodged and you have that 15 sec wait to re-apply , course you could always try to miss with [Determined Shot] and get it to recharge lol

Babble doesn`t cause daze if there`s a boss in the party and has a much much lower daze time.

It`s not a fail if you`re going for a hard kill build

I wouldn`t rely purely on the daze to interrupt,[Distracting Shot] [Savage Shot] [Needling Shot] + i`d hope rest of party was all on target if you have to take down a major caster in a hurry

Course there`s always * puts on Nomex suit * [Disrupting Accuracy]

with a hard spike build you should crit regularly, add in the attacks and it could actually be useful lol

Dre · Jan 19, 2009, 06:41 PM // 18:41

[prepared shot] as elite, maybe?

Bobby2 · Jan 19, 2009, 06:48 PM // 18:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Babble doesn`t cause daze if there`s a boss in the party and has a much much lower daze time.

Read the skill again.

Daze lasts long enough assuming your team packs at least some semblance of spike damage.

Chthon · Jan 19, 2009, 06:49 PM // 18:49

I think Concussion Shot is a perfectly good substitute for BHA in a fair number of circumstances.

The key difference are:
1. BHA eats an elite slot.
2. Since BHA dazes on demand, you're assured to get your dazed in before the target uses the skill you want to stop.
3. BHA misses because if its arc, while CS fails to daze if it's not timed properly. They both have reliability problems, but BHA tends to be somewhat more reliable.

Usually what it comes down to for me is #2. If I'm anticipating something that I absolutely need to stop from casting -- like a big caster boss with a nasty AoE spell -- I bring BHA; If I'm just bringing daze for its general usefulness, I might use CS to free my elite slot.

Bobby2 · Jan 19, 2009, 06:58 PM // 18:58

[stunning strike] Beastmaster.

Balky · Jan 19, 2009, 07:25 PM // 19:25

[Technobabble] max daze of 5 secs with Asuran rank 8 or above and can`t be targeted directly on boss, even less precise than concussion imho

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 07:41 PM // 19:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

[Technobabble] max daze of 5 secs with Asuran rank 8 or above and can`t be targeted directly on boss, even less precise than concussion imho

Then use BHA if you're worried about that - Concussion Shot is incredibly unreliable depending on the connection and all of the factors that make a difference, and with a boss around (face it, Hard Mode actually takes some effort), you're definately not going to land it unless you have incredibly strong energy management so you can use it more, or you've got some mad prediction ability.

Also, what Bobby said over BHA. Partly because I love(ed) spears when I played.

Improvavel · Jan 19, 2009, 07:52 PM // 19:52

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO does anyone miss with with BHA? Pull, monster stop, throw BHA - 100% accuracy!

Balky · Jan 19, 2009, 09:06 PM // 21:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla;

Then use BHA if you're worried about that - Concussion Shot is incredibly unreliable depending on the connection and all of the factors that make a difference, and with a boss around (face it, Hard Mode actually takes some effort), you're definately not going to land it unless you have incredibly strong energy management so you can use it more, or you've got some mad prediction ability.

Also, what Bobby said over BHA. Partly because I love(ed) spears when I played.

Incredibly unreliable is an exaggeration to say the least, no one`s suggesting trying to spam it, but i would expect any half decent player to be able to work out when to pop it, not hard to tell when a target is warming up a skill after all.

Have to ask, if you don`t even play the game anymore, why are you even bothered?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel;

How the RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GO does anyone miss with with BHA? Pull, monster stop, throw BHA - 100% accuracy!

Monster don`t always stop ug, monster move BHA miss, concussion shot quicker arrow, less chance miss ug

Posts Merged by Celestial Beaver: Please use the button rather than double posting.

zelgadissan · Jan 19, 2009, 09:19 PM // 21:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

[Technobabble] max daze of 5 secs with Asuran rank 8 or above and can`t be targeted directly on boss, even less precise than concussion imho

On top of what Tyla said to this comment, don't forget about your Silencing bowstrings - they will lengthen Technobabble. Or hell, if you don't want to run BHA as your elite, you can run the new Archer's Signet with Technobabble. There's tons of ways to get long lasting Daze without having to interrupt to do it, which makes Concussion good, but nowhere near the level of BHA, Technobabble, Stunning Strike, even Spear Swipe.

WhiteAsIce · Jan 19, 2009, 09:24 PM // 21:24

Well I don't know about PvE, but I used this once for fun in PvP:
[build PvP prof=R/Mo Expertise=11+1+1 Marks=10+1 Wild=10+1 Prot=1][Concussion Shot][Distracting Shot][Optional][Archer's Signet][Apply Poison][Natural Stride][Mending Touch][Resurrection Signet][/build]
Put something like [[Hunter's Shot], [[Screaming Shot], or [[Pin Down] so you can cover the daze and poison with a third condition. In AB/CM, I took out Res Signet for [[Barbed Trap] to place over the portals for surprise action.
Only downside of this is that since Conc Shot costs 12 energy this way, there's no other way to manage evergy if you use it too often. If you use Apply Poison and Pin Down too often, you run out of energy quickly as well.

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 09:28 PM // 21:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by zelgadissan

On top of what Tyla said to this comment, don't forget about your Silencing bowstrings - they will lengthen Technobabble.

Or you could switch to a staff built for PvE skills (press F2!) to get more out of it, at least in my opinion - I think a 33% Daze sword with +30HP, 10%HCT / +5E inscrip and (possibly) a focus on switch if you're using a martial weapon.

Quote:

Or hell, if you don't want to run BHA as your elite, you can run the new Archer's Signet with Technobabble.

If you're using a bow. I'd much rather use something that will deal damage instead of me being a condition bitch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balky

Incredibly unreliable is an exaggeration to say the least, no one`s suggesting trying to spam it, but i would expect any half decent player to be able to work out when to pop it, not hard to tell when a target is warming up a skill after all.

It's not hard to tell when a target is warming a skill up, but unless you have quicksilver reflexes, you're going nowhere but spamming. You'll occasionally hit one, but rarely - we are talking bosses here, and in Hard Mode.

Quote:

Have to ask, if you don`t even play the game anymore, why are you even bothered?

Unless there is an update so out-of-bounds that my knowledge of the game or arguments are made invalid, I'll be here to stay. The reason I'm here? Why shouldn't I give my own advice? If people have a problem, they should argue against my advice and present other things. I do the same thing - it adds to a discussion, and gives the person requiring help a bit more insight on the area s/he is confused about.

t00115577 · Jan 19, 2009, 09:38 PM // 21:38

How can you miss with BHA anyway, recurve bow, rtw, get in close to target if you are afraid he might kite, result.

CS, your gonna hit this 1/3 times at best in HM against enemies you need to like monks, with all less than 1/2 sec casts. If you can hit a 1/4 sec cast 100% go for CS otherwise BHA > CS

Tyla · Jan 19, 2009, 09:47 PM // 21:47

How to not miss with BHA: If your enemy is kiting on a regular basis (RtW or Recurves don't touch how it works), then try to get in close to make it less avoidable, as this also benefits interrupts such as Savage Shot or Distracting Shot if you've brought them.

Krill · Jan 19, 2009, 11:00 PM // 23:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by t00115577

How can you miss with BHA anyway, recurve bow, rtw, get in close to target if you are afraid he might kite, result.

Spirits, preps etc. do not affect the flight time of BHA, it always has the same trajectory. It's actually best to use it with a shortbow or flatbow to minimize activation time.

Concussion doesn't much play in PvP because the only way to use it frequently is with prepared shot for e-management, but prepared shot has significant drawbacks compared to other ranger elites. Savage shot (what it would usually replace) is also spammed for extra damage and to spread poison, can't do that with concussion because of the cost and because it hits for a low fixed damage.

It's not used in PvE because BHA is no problem to hit and interrupting in HM is difficult because of the decreased spell casting time and / or general lack of care.

*edit-clarification

Marverick · Jan 19, 2009, 11:54 PM // 23:54

["You Move Like a Dwarf!"][Broad Head Arrow] <-- how to land BHA on a moving target

Also good luck reflexing 0.66s casts in hard mode... meh.

Bring both - use BHA for stuff that you can't interrupt with C-shot, and use C-shot for stuff that has long cast times or predictable casting patterns.